Q ([info]queueball) wrote,
@ 2004-11-17 00:36:00
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Honor Among Murderers
Republicans are tolerant. Democrats are bigots.

Of course that's not true -- although it does reflect my experience. I don't remember the last right-leaning person I met who genuinely wished ill on those of a different ideology. On the left, it's an accepted norm. But there are tolerant and bigoted people in the world and they come in all parties, all ideologies, all manner of everything. The old saw that leftists are the tolerant ones, though, isn't true.

Consider, by way of example, "The Urban Archipelago," a recent gem from The Stranger.

I've known of gay-bashers less filled with hatred. And I mean real gay-bashers, the kind who, if the writers of this editorial are to be believed, make up the whole population of the "red states," the kind who pistol-whip a kid and leave him for dead. Some of those gay-bashers are scared and enraged and dumb -- bad people who did evil things, but not cool liberal elites who have the composure and intelligence to sit down and write, meaning every word, in a cold and premeditated and hateful way: "If a kid in a red state finds his daddy's handgun and blows his head off, we'll feel terrible (we're like that), but we'll try to look on the bright side: At least he won't grow up to vote like his dad."

Nice. That's real progressive. Some mother in Wyoming who lost her eight-year-old to gun violence is gonna really appreciate that vaunted tolerance and compassion you're putting on parade.

Legally speaking, our hypothetical gay-basher would be committing perhaps second-degree murder; the editorialists, first-degree.

The Stranger's a Seattle paper, and the fact that they'd try to bill local mass transit as anything like a success based on the hypothetical benefits is grand. Ask Dan Savage what the per-capita cost -- monetary and environmental -- of ferrying around one person on that silly monorail is going to be. Wanna show us the cost/benefit stats on those bike paths? And I don't just mean in someone's tax bill, I mean in resources that could be put to use helping poor people. How about unemployment occasioned by that beloved excise tax? Do we really have a liberal promoting "density in outlying areas," i.e., sprawl? You gonna wanna have some urban planners "fix" the sprawl in a decade when it doesn't accord with your image of an ideal society?

Maybe not. I wouldn't want to assume as much, classifying you as representatives of an ideology rather than as people. Bigotry and prejudice are bad things. They taught me that back in pre-school.

I'd like to take the whole thing as a satire, but I'm afraid it isn't. There are really people who think like this, who actually think there's something to this idea of holing up in cities and letting the backward hicks in the "red states," or red non-cities, or whatever, fend for themselves. Who actually think it's tolerant to say, "If you don't live in a city, fuck you."

There's part of your offer I'll take, guys. Wall off your cities, and keep your government health care and your gun control and your mass transit and all that stuff inside. If your idea of a civil society is one in which people routinely die of treatable diseases even more often than they do now, the weak have no opportunity to defend themselves, and we feel good about the way we get places at the expense of jobs and the environment and ultimately people's lives ... then maybe it's time I moved to Wyoming or Kansas. Those backwards, gay-bashing hicks seem to like me a lot more than the progressives. And at least some of them are willing to have a conversation about it ... not say, "Vote like I do or I hate you."

Many in the "heartland" you so disparage, believe it or not, know that dividing people into groups, and then hating some of the groups, is bad. That's why racism is bad, and classism. And red-state-ism. "You live in Colorado, or Kansas, or Wyoming. You suck. Terre Haute, okay! But Akron, fuck you."

C'mon.

"We oppose their sub-moronic, 'faith-based' approach to life.... SCIENCE! That's another thing we're for. And reason. And history. All those things that non-urbanists have replaced with their idiotic faith."

More tolerance. If people of faith treat secularism with the same amount of respect, we'll have a grand dialogue going, won't we? Do those promoting government control of education and medicine and art and all manner of other stuff really want to criticize others for not understanding history? For being insensitive to the produce of reason?

What set me off about this article is that it comes from a respectable publication, and says what so much of the left is thinking -- kudos for that, by the way! -- in a way that, say, the NYT is a little too dignified to do. It's what's spoken by many leftists around water coolers, in coffee houses, on the street -- this is the credo.

It's a credo of hatred.

No matter who is doing the hatred, hating is bad. Hatred is my enemy, and I've been fighting it for a while. The "sides" in this battle have nothing to do with party affiliation or ideology. It is about people who are willing to understand where other sincere and decent people are coming from. I'm part of that group, and I'm quite willing to say: you're either with us or against us. If you don't care if a kid in Wyoming blows his head off, I'm against you.

We people like that are an awfully lonely bunch.



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Agreed.
[info]ercutio
2004-11-17 10:40 am UTC (link)
To quote Chris Rock:

"The whole country's got a fucked-up mentality, man. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are fuckin' idiots, and Democrats are fuckin' idiots, and conservatives are idiots, and liberals are idiots, and...

Anyone that makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a fucking fool.

Everybody-- everybody's so busy wanting to be down with a gang-- I'm a conservative, I'm a liberal-- BULLSHIT. Be a fucking person-- LISTEN!"

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[info]dorkdorkdork
2004-11-17 12:08 pm UTC (link)
Well said.

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Yes, however:
[info]akaten
2004-11-17 12:59 pm UTC (link)
I think the point of the article was that liberalism doesn't get any respect in the American political arena today, and that's why those who believe in its principles have to be more aggressive in defending their turf.

I will admit that I've never actually met many right-wing people; living where I do, it's fairly hard. Every time I have, though, they demonstrated such a marked disconnect from reality (WMDs in Iraq! WMDs in Iraq! And so on) that I found it difficult to have any sort of serious discussion with them at all.

Also, not everything in the article was vitriolic; they say themselves that "We all know that not everyone who lives in the suburbs is a raving neo-Christian idiot. The raving neo-Christian idiots are winning, however, so we need to take the fight to them." Seems fairly logical to me, really. If nothing else, this election has taught me that there are large numbers of people out there who would hurt or kill me because they think it's God's will, and I don't really see any way of negotiating with a position like that.

I won't pretend that the idea of writing off large areas of the country doesn't make me uncomfortable, because I know there'll be innocent people in those areas who'll be affected-- gay kids can grow up anywhere, for example, and they shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes of their neighbors. But as a political strategy, this urbanism could possibly be effective, and I prefer possible progress to the certainty of regression that Republican control of the government promises.

Oh, Mr. Q. I admire your courage in your convictions more than I can say. And I don't want to hate anybody. It just seems that, more and more each day, there are more people out there who hate me just for existing, and if it comes down to a choice between championing my cause and theirs... well, there's really no choice at all. I dearly hope we haven't come to that fork in the road yet, but I fear we may have. There doesn't seem to be much common ground left anymore.

Love and struggle, my good man.

-J

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]queueball
2004-11-17 04:37 pm UTC (link)
The article put forth a fine political strategy, one I'd like to see the Democrats embrace. Then they'd be true leftists and the party would stand for something again.

But I can summarize the strategy in four words: focus on the cities. That's about all the verbiage they spent on it. Notwithstanding the token "there are a few halfway decent right-wingers" bruited in the last paragraph, however, the rest is just a rant. I'd appreciate the rant a lot more if I didn't think a lot of people, including its authors, believe every word in it.

The left is no less disconnected from reality than the right. And they're both disconnected. :) You say you've met few right-wingers, which I suppose is to say few self-identified conservatives, yet you "know" how much they hate you. I think you and others believe that primarily because of a media drumbeat that tells you you should believe it. That's perilously similar to conservatives who believe there were, or are, WMD in Iraq because of what they saw on Fox News ... even though they haven't actually read declassified intelligence reports and other source materials. Or, it's perilously close to rich white racists who grew up in suburbia and never met a black person ... but "know" that "those people" are bums and welfare queens and drug addicts.

Bigotry isn't any better just because it's directed at a new group.

To believe it's as simple as Red People and Blue People, the good guys and the bad guys -- who wants to identify with that? It's a brand of hatred that's not even as nuanced as run-of-the-mill homophobia or anti-Semitism. You're better than that, and so are most of the leftist friends I know who identify as the Blue Team fighting the Red Team. Which is why I repeat this mantra so much. :-)

Bigotry has a much harder time existing when people get to know the people they're bigoted against. I hope that's one proposition about which any reasonable person will agree with me.

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]akaten
2004-11-17 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Well, when people vote to take away my civil rights-- or support those who'd like to do so-- I generally take it as an indication they don't like me too much, yeah.

I agree that it's not all as simple as blue/red. The problem is, our ballots don't take those fine distinctions into account. I trust very little the mainstream media says at this point, but unless I embrace unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, I have to accept that the way the majority voted betrays a near-total disregard for common sense, to say nothing of the environment, civil rights, etc.

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]queueball
2004-11-18 04:55 pm UTC (link)
I'm just saying you should learn to think like they do. Some of them probably thing that you hate them, because you want to take away their ability to send their kids to college (via high taxes) or get good health care (via single-payer systems), etc. Of course that's not what you want; you just disagree about the results of your vote. But if you think that a vote for Bush is a vote for Bush's policies, you should get to know a lot more righties. If for no other reason than because it'll help you fight their politics better if you actually understand what their politics, on average, are.

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]akaten
2004-11-18 08:29 pm UTC (link)
... so if a Bush voter doesn't support his policies, then why would he/she vote for him at all? I'm confused.

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]queueball
2004-11-18 10:49 pm UTC (link)
The simplest answer, put well in different terms below, is that virtually no one can vote in America for a person whose policies he or she "supports." Rather than get deep into an explanation which would work better over coffee or in another forum, I'll answer this way:

A Bush voter would vote for Bush, despite not supporting all of his policies, for the same reason you voted for Kerry even though you don't support all his policies. At least I suspect you don't. For example, Kerry laughed dismissively at the idea of same-sex marriage. Kerry dissed your civil rights; you still voted for him. If you're against the way, you also didn't have a major-party choice in this election. They both strongly supported it. You still voted Kerry, I presume. And I don't blame you; lots of intelligent people made that choice.

If you can make a choice like that about Kerry, others can make a choice like that about Bush. Rage won't engender understanding between those camps.

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]queueball
2004-11-18 10:50 pm UTC (link)
Uh ... "way" = "war." :)

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]akaten
2004-11-19 12:16 am UTC (link)
Yeah, but that still leaves us with someone who prefers Bush's policies to Kerry's, even if they don't necessarily agree with them all. That, to me, is either wildly irrational or rooted in such malevolent self-interest that there's no possibility of accord.

Oh, well. I'm sure that as I embark on my career I'll meet some sane right-wingers, but until then, all I have to go on are the writings of their standard-bearers, which... yeah.

Miss ya, man. Be online more!

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Re: Yes, however:
[info]queueball
2004-11-21 08:41 am UTC (link)
You gotta deal with the actual people. The standard-bearers on both sides are kooky. To put it in perspective, generally speaking, I feel equally threatened by Bush and Kerry. Analyzing their policies over certain periods of time, I'd prefer Bush's policies to Kerry's by a substantial margin. You haven't seemed to find me wildly irrational or malevolently self-interested yet. I'm too cute and charming. ;)

People, babe. Individual people. You don't know people until you know people.

I have issues with AIM, but I look for you whenever I'm on, which is rarely. See you soon, hopefully.

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[info]calaen
2004-11-17 03:49 pm UTC (link)
As someone currently awash in a sea of red, I really hope the crazy urbanists don't wall themselves off entirely. I'd like to, you know, go back to New York every once in a while.

It's funny though how everyone in New York rolled their eyes and told me, "Good luck!" when I said I was going to Georgia. Now that I'm settled in, I realize I confronted a lot more intolerance and prejudice in the city than I have in the land of pickups and religious fundamentalism. Granted, Athens is relatively liberal, but even the Bible-swinging Baptists I've met, learning my sexuality, have just said, "oh...I didn't know anyone in Commerce (or wherever) Georgia who was...um...gay..." and then we've gone on with our lives.

I think you're right. There's a fundamental difference between prejudice born of ignorance and that born of misused education. The educated elite I'm sure would say that since they know all the sides of an issue, they're free to wall off the facets they don't endorse. If ignorance keeps your mind open, though, I'm all for it.

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[info]doctor_samuel
2004-11-17 04:32 pm UTC (link)
"They--rural, red-state voters, the denizens of the exurbs--are not real Americans. They are rubes, fools, and hate-mongers."


Irony is touching in so many ways.

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[info]joshua
2004-11-17 06:18 pm UTC (link)
This piece strives for a nice, happy medium. Or something.

I think the annoying liblabs of whom you speak (on certain days and around certain watercoolers I have been among them) react with hate because they (e, I, o, U, and sometimes y) see the right's agenda as being born out of hatred. Of course that doesn't make one any better than the other, and in fact negates the sense of moral, er, superiority we might feel we have. (A separate and unequal discussion is my never-articulated dissatisfaction with that movie by That Michigander, not because it wasn't hideously entertaining, because it was, but because I wanted the left to fight fire with facts, not with condescension and cheap one-liners. In a better world I would have had other places to pin my hopes, but I can sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings at another time and perhaps with some Merlot around.)

We need to do better, and maybe that's a benefit (well, and a cause) of the blows Democrats took this month. So far, uh, I ain't seein' it. But I hear the Women of Ohio and the World (WOOW) are having a meeting on the topic this week, and that gives me some relief.

Or not.

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on heretics.
[info]midendian
2004-11-17 08:29 pm UTC (link)
I had a big reply here, but it's pointless. There are hateful people everywhere and it doesn't matter whether they say they're compassionate or not. People who put vast meaning into the terms 'conservative' and 'liberal' aren't useful to argue with -- they don't know what they're arguing about, since the words are meaningless, and always have been. They're usually defined in any given person's mind by some older person saying 'this is what you are and these are the people who don't agree with you', which is pretty much why they're not useful. They're binary, and that's gonna create the hate.

Michael Savage cares about people too! You should listen to him. He's got some stellar ideas on how to solve the Middle East problem. Very compassionate.

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Re: on heretics.
[info]queueball
2004-11-18 10:44 pm UTC (link)
Re first graf ... I know that. It's not myself I'm trying to convince. Notwithstanding that "conservative" and "liberal" have meant real and meaningful things in the paste, they don't anymore. Kerry's no Mises and Bush is no Burke.

Michael Savage is a scary man (and, afaik, not related to Dan genealogically ... and certainly not ideologically).

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[info]rk624
2004-11-18 06:07 am UTC (link)
Ayup - the campus BLGT list has been yelling at each other about this article for a few days now. I'm with you on this - and I think that most of my friends on the left are too, once they all think it through. (I hold out hope, at least...)

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My perspective
[info]phlog
2004-11-19 02:41 am UTC (link)
I'll try to keep this brief and meaningful.

As I'm sure you're away, I'm pretty far on the left (registered Green and all). Here's my generalized view on conservatives: more than I would stereotype them hateful, I would lean closer to self-interested and mostly valuing things I don't and not valuing things I do. My perspective is that liberals tend to think more toward globalizing quality of life (even at the cost of theirs and especially at those who they think are "over-advantaged"/have excess which benefits them little more but harms other much more), while conservatives focus more on protecting/improving the quality of life of themselves and those around them (or who they generally favor) and don't care as much about the external consequences (harm to others) as I think they should.

So, at the root of it, I don't think most of the problems I have with conservatism is some inherent "hatred" so much as lack of compassion. And I wouldn't classify most conservatives I've met in person as "bad people", but they don't seem to care as much for the well-being of others they aren't in constant contact with as I think is healthy.

The reciprocal of this is waste and being "soft" (on crime, intimidating countries with some people we don't like, encouraging people to be dependent). Well, I've got to say that both "sides" (where we're talking major parties) do introduce a lot of waste. That's why I think we need to fight for third parties to have a fair chance. And as for being "soft", I'd rather be "soft" in some respects than ignore the needs of neglected groups. Of course, this is in general, and there are plenty of exceptions.

Of course, most of this is pretty subjective, and all from my experience (including what seem to be credible indirect sources), but that's all I've got to go on. I don't assume I've got all the answers, but this is the best I've got right now.

There's definitely a lack of perspective across the board (mostly because everyone seems to love simplified explanations which reaffirm their existing beliefs), and we all certainly need to get involved in more dialog with each other.

Another problem I think we need to deal with is how watered down and bought the major two parties are. A side effect of it is that most people look to the other side and see these general problems (corruption, lack of serious drive to make any progress) in addition to anything they actually disagree with, ignoring the fact that their party has the same general problems. In other words, Democrats look at the Republican Party and dislike A and B about it. Republicans look at the Democrats and dislike C and B. B is the corruption of each party which distracts it from its reasonable goals and is probably considered to have larger magnitude than C and A. If we belonged to parties we were fully behind (which were relatively free from corruption), we could finally sit down and talk about our real basic disagreements and find some common ground.

I hope this was releatively coherent.

I guess at this point you can disregard the first line. :)

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Re: My perspective
[info]queueball
2004-11-21 08:49 am UTC (link)
Far more than relatively coherent, this was well said and more or less echoes my own thinking. The only place you and I differ is in what we think is possible, i.e., what the results will be of particular policies. But we have the same goals. We disagree about facts, not values. We both want a better world with no starving people and no poverty maximized civil rights.

This kind of intelligent, thoughtful reasoning is what I yearn to see more of, rather than blind, frothing party-based (much less major-party-based) groupthink.

You captured well my personal experience -- in a general sense -- of liberals and conservatives, too. I think that a sort of lack of passion is often mistaken for selfishness in conservatives, but that's a different thing. Anyway, I often get along better with liberals when talking about the kind of world I want, because we want the same kind of world. But I often get along better with conservatives when talking about policy, because -- still generally speaking -- they're less concerned with what they want to happen, and at least marginally more concerned with what the set of possible options is. I run into plenty of near-Marxist leftists who identify as liberals; I don't run into very many free-market types who identify as conservatives. The latter, for all their lack of imagination, tend toward practicality -- a blessing and a curse.

Thanks for being cool. :)

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[info]ripper82
2004-11-19 05:30 am UTC (link)
Don't be such a skank.

This is all too confusing for me, and you should know that's saying something.

Am I closed minded? Impossible.

lol

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[info]sss4r
2004-11-19 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Republicans are tolerant. Democrats are bigots.

We could discuss this for hours.... Through my experience, observation, and knowledge, I reach a polar opposite conclusion. I think the evidence would disagree with you. I've been wanting to reply to your post for days, but I'm just exhausted with debating politics, for now. I think we're both open-minded, though. Maybe we can stay on each other's friends lists and try to see other perspectives?

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[info]queueball
2004-11-21 08:36 am UTC (link)
My whole point was that I don't think that; it was an attention-getter line. Republicans are people. Democrats are people. That's all you can say about them as groups.

I'm all about staying friends and seeing other perspectives. It's what I live for. Deal. :)

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[info]dudepower1982
2004-11-21 02:33 am UTC (link)
Being stuck with Bush for another 4 years won't be NEARLY as insufferable if we can get that prick Rick Santorum booted out of office in '06.

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[info]queueball
2004-11-21 08:34 am UTC (link)
I think it's a good thing that, when I hear Santorum, I don't just think of a senator ... I think of the stuff Dan Savage named after him. =)

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[info]dudepower1982
2004-11-21 07:49 pm UTC (link)
Barbara Hafer 2006!

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